Ogden's Proposed Land Sale and Related Developments

The news of a proposed sale of public land in Ogden's foothills is generating a lot of interest throughout our community. In an effort to provide objective facts, we offer the following list of frequently asked questions and answers. We also invite anyone with further questions, additional information, or corrections to contact us.

1. What are Mayor Godfrey and Chris Peterson proposing?

The major components of the proposal are: (a) the city would sell the Mt. Ogden Golf Course (about 110 acres) and the adjacent park land east and south of the golf course (another 65 acres) to Chris Peterson; (b) Weber State University would sell its property east of Skyline Drive (about 130 acres) to Peterson; (c) Peterson would develop this property into a gated residential area with approximately 400 homes and a redesigned golf course; (d) Peterson would also develop a resort on his mountain property in Malan's Basin, with a gondola connecting the foothill development to the mountain development; (e) the city would use the proceeds from the sale of its property, plus additional funds that it promises to raise from private donors, to construct an urban gondola between downtown and the foothill development.

2. What is the current status of the proposal?

At this time the proposal is best characterized as "conceptual." Many of the details seem to be changing from week to week. No formal proposal has been presented to the Ogden City Council or the Utah Board of Regents, which would have to approve the proposed land sales. The "plans" that have been presented to the public so far are merely conceptual drawings that raise as many questions as they answer. As far as we're aware, no technical or economic feasibility analyses have been performed.

3. Would Mt. Ogden Park be sold?

It depends on what you mean by Mt. Ogden Park. The tennis courts, soccer fields, and picnic areas in the narrow strip along Taylor Avenue would not be sold. However, "Mt. Ogden Park" can also mean the entire tract of city-owned property including the golf course and the contiguous foothill land that includes most of the Mt. Ogden Exercise Trail, Strong's Canyon, and a portion of the Bonneville shoreline. All of these lands would be sold.

4. How much would Chris Peterson pay for the foothill property?

Neither Peterson nor the Ogden City administration nor WSU has disclosed what they would consider to be a fair price. However, the purchase price of the city's property would have to be enough to pay most of the construction cost of the urban gondola (see below).

5. What would the foothill development look like?

Essentially all of the foothills above the golf course and WSU, up to the Bonneville shoreline (5200 feet elevation), would be developed. The latest conceptual drawing shows the redesigned golf course spread throughout this area, with streets and houses between the fairways. There would also be a commercial "village" above the top of 36th Street, where the two gondolas would meet.

6. Is it feasible to put 400 homes in this area?

We don't know. The latest conceptual drawing shows residential areas on very steep terrain where landslides could be a hazard and where building would be prohibited by the city's Sensitive Area Overlay Zone ordinance. Several streets are drawn with improbable alignments, heading directly up slopes of 30% or more. The drawing also shows the commercial village area (including the gondola terminals) and two residential areas over active fault traces. A geotechnical study will be needed to determine how much of the land is actually buildable.

7. What would happen to the golf course?

The latest conceptual drawing shows the front nine holes of the redesigned course on the current golf course site, with a new residential development in the middle. The back nine would be relocated to the steeper land to the east and south, interspersed with more residential developments. Because of the steep slopes, experts have indicated that the current plan is unrealistic.

8. What would happen to the foothill trails?

We don't know, because a realistic, detailed plan for the development does not yet exist. The latest conceptual drawing shows about five miles of foothill trails being eliminated, including much of the Mt. Ogden Exercise Loop. The Bonneville Shoreline Trail would be relocated several hundred feet higher on the mountain, to make room for residential developments on the Bonneville terrace. Some new foothill trails are proposed, passing through the golf course and residential areas, but it isn't clear that they would be feasible or safe. The drawing shows trails crossing streets in 10 locations, crossing golf holes in 7 locations, and even crossing the driving range.

9. What would the Malan's Basin resort look like?

Peterson has described it as a "pedestrian village" that would include 350 condominiums plus restaurants, shops, and a ski area. There is an artist's drawing that depicts the proposed style of architecture, and a map showing a number of new mountain trails connecting to Malan's Basin, but there seem to be no actual plans at this time.

10. Is it feasible to build such a resort in Malan's Basin?

We don't know. The exact site and footprint of the proposed resort have not been disclosed, but there does not appear to exist a buildable site in Malan's Basin that could accommodate such a large facility. (See also this page and the answers to the next two questions.)

11. Would there be a road to Malan's Basin?

We don't know. Access to Malan's Basin is an obvious challenge, due to the very steep terrain. Constructing an access road would be technically difficult, may be prohibitively expensive, and might be politically impossible because it would probably have to cross National Forest land. Peterson has made it clear that the primary means of access for the public would be the gondola. Lately, he and Mayor Godfrey have also described the possibility of using the gondola for bringing in construction materials and for removing waste. Peterson has hinted that he may intend to make significant use of four-wheel drive vehicles, ATV's, and/or snowmobiles for access, but these also would have to cross National Forest land where motorized travel is currently prohibited. Of course, access by foot, horseback, and helicopter would also be possible.

12. Is it feasible to put a ski area in Malan's Basin?

It might be technically possible, but it would be highly unusual. The apparent plan is to put the ski area on the northwest-facing slope above the resort site in Malan's Basin. This slope would offer an 1800-foot vertical drop, but it is small (less than 200 acres) and quite steep.

13. Would the gondola and ski area connect to Snowbasin?

Not in the foreseeable future. Peterson's property stops half a mile short of the ridgetop where Snowbasin begins. Extending a gondola or ski lift across that half mile would require an environmental impact statement and amendment to the Wasatch-Cache National Forest Plan. The Forest Service is unlikely to approve such a proposal without support from Snowbasin, and at present, Snowbasin's position is that they are not interested in such a connection. Even if Snowbasin did support such a proposal, the Forest Service could still say no.

14. Is the mountain gondola technically and economically feasible?

The most recent (1998) Mt. Ogden Tram feasibility study recommended a jigback tram, not a gondola, as the most feasible technology because it is less expensive and less susceptible to wind. (The disadvantage of a jigback tram is the much longer wait between departures.) It would be interesting to see a feasibility study of the currently proposed technology and alignment, but as far as we know, no such study has been performed. Spanning the gap across Waterfall Canyon and placing an intermediate station on the ridge overlooking the waterfall could be technically challenging. Relying on the gondola for all resort access, 365 days/year, with no down-time for maintenance, might also be a challenge. The cost of the gondola would almost certainly be too much for it to be funded through ticket sales alone; rather, the proposal seems to be to subsidize the gondola (and the Malan's Basin resort) by selling luxury homes in the foothills.

15. Where would the urban gondola go?

The urban leg of the gondola would follow a 4.5-mile route from the Intermodal Hub at 23rd and Wall, up 23rd Street to Harrison, south along Harrison to a point in front of WSU, then east-northeast across the WSU campus to the commercial village in the foothills where riders could transfer to the mountain gondola. There would be at least two intermediate stations, at the former mall site and in front of WSU. Additional stations on Harrison, at 23rd and 30th streets, have been suggested.

16. Would commuters and other residents use the urban gondola?

Undoubtedly some would, but this system is not being designed with Ogden residents and commuters in mind. The Ogden Transit Corridor Study (conducted by Ogden City, the Wasatch Front Regional Council, and UTA) showed that to serve residents and commuters, a transit system should have a third downtown stop, a stop near Monroe Blvd., and an extension to 4400 S. Harrison (serving McKay-Dee Hospital and the Dee Events Center). The goal of the urban gondola is primarily to carry resort visitors from downtown Ogden to the foothills. Some of the leading proponents of the project have explicitly stated their view that Ogden should rely on a separate transit system to serve the needs of residents. We are concerned that separating tourists from residents might be perceived as a form of segregation, and could harm the morale of our community.

17. Would the urban gondola be safe?

No form of transportation is completely safe, but the safety record of gondolas at ski resorts appears to be very good. Unfortunately, there is little data on the safety of gondolas in urban environments. Routine maintenance could be a challenge on a system that needs to operate for long hours, 365 days a year. Some people have expressed concern for personal safety when riding in a cabin with strangers in the absence of an operator.

18. What would the urban gondola cost?

In 2004 the city obtained a consultant's estimate of $23.15 million for an urban gondola along the same alignment, without the final leg across WSU. The following year, the Ogden Transit Corridor Study estimated the cost of a five-station version of the urban gondola at $45 million. Based on these estimates, a ballpark figure for the currently proposed version of the urban gondola would probably be between $30 million and $50 million. Until an actual engineering study is performed, the cost will be quite uncertain.

Operating and maintenance costs for the urban gondola would probably be between $3 million and $4 million per year, depending on the number of stations and hours of operation.

19. Who would pay for the urban gondola?

According to Mayor Godfrey, the city would pay for and own the urban gondola. Godfrey has indicated that funds for construction would come from proceeds from the sale of the city-owned foothill property (including the golf course) and from additional private donations. The city would then contract with Chris Peterson to operate the gondola; this contract would be renewable at Peterson's option.

20. Wouldn't a streetcar system be even more expensive?

A comparison of the gondola to the streetcar isn't very relevant because the two systems are being designed for different purposes; even if the gondola is built, a separate multi-purpose transit system will still be needed. However, here are the facts about the streetcar's estimated costs: The initial construction cost for the recommended route between the Intermodal Hub and McKay-Dee Hospital is estimated at $100 million, including a 30% contingency margin. The likely source of this funding would be 50% federal and 50% from UTA, with only token contributions from Ogden City. The streetcar's annual operating cost is estimated at $2.6 million, and would be assumed entirely by UTA. For more details about mass transit options for Ogden, see our transit page.

21. What impacts would the urban gondola have on the city?

The latest version of the proposal has the gondola going up the middle of 23rd Street, then along the western edge of Harrison Blvd. Residents of these streets would see gondola cabins passing by all day long, every day, 40 feet above the street or sidewalk. On Harrison the gondola cabins would pass very close to the roofs of a number of homes and businesses. At ground level there would be one or two towers per block, with associated barriers, occupying space in the street. The biggest impacts would be at the intermediate stations and bends at 23rd and Harrison, in front of WSU, and possibly at 30th and Harrison. These devices have rather large footprints so it was assumed in the Ogden Transit Corridor Study that they would have to be elevated above the road (at an additional cost of more than a million dollars each). Even then, the right-of-way impacts may be substantial.

22. Wouldn't a streetcar or bus rapid transit system have even bigger right-of-way impacts?

Probably, but the urban gondola is not being designed as a substitute for a general-purpose mass transit system, so the comparison isn't very relevant. A streetcar system, in particular, could significantly reduce the number of automobiles on the road, making up for its right-of-way impacts.

23. How fast would the gondolas travel?

According to the promotional materials currently being distributed, the speed would be between 11 and 15 miles per hour. If we take 13 mph as an average, plus one minute for each intermediate stop, and assume no additional stops along Harrison, then the ride from the Intermodal Hub to the foothill development would take approximately 24 minutes. Allowing five minutes for the transfer between gondolas, the six-mile ride to Malan's Basin would take just over 36 minutes. If the mountain gondola is eventually extended to the ridge overlooking Snowbasin, the ride up to this point would take about 45 minutes. During windy conditions the speeds would be significantly slower.

24. Would the gondolas be lighted, heated, or air conditioned?

They can be, but it is awkward and expensive because each cabin would have to carry its own power supply. As far as we know, Mayor Godfrey has not yet decided whether to build this cost into the budget for the urban gondola.

25. Where would resort visitors park?

The claim is that virtually all resort visitors (presumably including golfers) would park in downtown Ogden, at either the Intermodal Hub or the mall parking garage. However, after commuter rail is operating and the mall site is redeveloped, it seems likely that downtown parking will become scarce and expensive. Resort visitors could, of course, take transit into downtown Ogden. It's natural to wonder whether summer and weekend visitors would be inclined to bypass downtown Ogden and park at WSU. We don't know how much parking space would be included in the proposed foothill development.

26. What economic benefits and costs would come from this project?

Mayor Godfrey has predicted that the project would create 1200 new jobs, generate $5 million per year in additional property tax for the city, county, and schools, and attract 1000 new out-of-state students per year to Weber State University. However, he has not provided the public with details to back up any of these figures. Given that there hasn't even been a feasibility study of the project, and that many of the project's details are likely to change before any of it can be implemented, we think it is premature to make such specific promises.

Economic costs are equally speculative, but could include: lower property values due to loss of park land and open space; the cost of providing city services (such as fire protection) to the new developments; costs associated with environmental mitigation and flood control; and the cost of operating (or dismantling) the urban gondola if Peterson doesn't renew his contract to operate it.

27. What environmental benefits and impacts would come from this project?

The urban gondola could reduce auto traffic within the city by an amount that is unknown but probably small, given that UTA will also offer bus service, synchronized with commuter rail, between downtown and WSU. If a streetcar system is also built along this corridor, the marginal benefit of the gondola would probably disappear. Mayor Godfrey has also predicted that the mountain gondola would reduce auto traffic to Snowbasin, but this prediction is based on the speculation that it would eventually connect to Snowbasin. In any case, these benefits would be more than offset by the auto traffic from 400 additional residences in the foothills. Meanwhile, the project would disturb hundreds of acres of native vegetation and wildlife habitat in the foothills and in Malan's Basin.

28. What is the time frame for possible approval and construction of this project?

We don't know. On one hand, proponents have said they hope the project can be completed by the time the Ogden-SLC commuter rail is running, in early 2008. On the other hand, neither Mayor Godfrey nor Chris Peterson has provided a detailed timeline for the project, or even indicated when more information about the proposal will become available.

29. How much money has Ogden City already spent on developing this proposal?

When the City Council asked Mayor Godfrey this question in mid-April, his answer was "single-digit thousands." This figure probably covers the GIS (mapping) services and other work that went into the conceptual drawings that were presented to the public at about that time. Other recent costs have included project-related travel by the mayor and advertising the project in the Standard-Examiner and in utility bill inserts. However, the city spent over $60,000 in 2004 on the urban gondola feasibility study, and this proposal has obviously consumed a significant fraction of Mayor Godfrey's working time and that of his senior staff since 2004. Going back further, there is ample evidence that the mayor has been working on some sort of gondola proposal almost continuously since he took office in early 2000. Before that, the city spent $100,000 on the 1998 tram feasibility study.

30. What are Chris Peterson's credentials as a developer?

Many people have asked us this question, but all we know is what Mr. Peterson has recently stated to the public: He worked for a number of years at Snowbasin and Sun Valley, where he played a role in real estate transactions and long-term planning.

31. Is SmartGrowthOgden opposed to this proposal?

At this time there are still so many unanswered questions about the proposal that we believe it would be inappropriate to take a formal position. The details of the proposal have already changed significantly since SmartGrowthOgden was organized in September 2005, and are certain to change further before it is time for any key decisions to be made. SmartGrowthOgden is generally in support of preserving public park land and open space, because we feel that this is a valuable asset to residents as well as an attraction to potential newcomers. We also support an open public process for making these kinds of major decisions, including full disclosure and ample opportunity for public input. An essential step in the public process for this proposal would be the development of a community plan for the Mt. Ogden neighborhood.

32. What alternative suggestions does SmartGrowthOgden have for making Ogden a better place?

Lots! Please see our detailed position statement. However, we don't share the view that Ogden is in a "downward spiral" that must be reversed, or that massive and radical projects are needed to "put Ogden on the map." We've seen many signs of positive change in Ogden during the last 15 years, and we believe that many additional small ideas can contribute to further improving our city. Given Ogden's natural setting and affordability, we're not surprised to learn that Ogden is already being "discovered." We see every reason to expect improved economic vitality in the coming years, whether or not a version of this proposal is implemented.